Having chronicled the rise and fall of his relationship with Ayn Rand and the evolution of his pioneering work on self-esteem in three previous IN dialogues, Nathaniel takes this opportunity to change gears and discuss some of the finer details of the AQAL model, and how it relates to his own work.

Specifically, Nathaniel and Ken explore the relationship of reason and rationality to some of the higher states and stages of consciousness (such as mystical unity consciousness). As Nathaniel notes, Ken has differentiated those aspects of consciousness from reason, and yet uses reason extensively to explain and even defend those realities—so what exactly is going on here?

As Ken explains, there are many aspects of our experience that are not reached through rationality—such as watching a sunset, eating an apple, having an orgasm, etc.—but those experiences can be looked at with a rational eye. In terms of spiritual experiences, which may include the experience of unity with all that is arising, those experiences themselves cannot be reached through the rational mind, but they can be rationally reconstructed to some degree after the fact.

Nathaniel is an extraordinary partner in this conversation for so many reasons, but it is his steadfast adherence to the "road rules" of reason that is particularly impressive. Regarding such unity experiences, he comments, "There's nothing here that at this time I can confirm or disconfirm in terms of my own experience." Whatever his beliefs about spirit may be, they don't sway his commitment to the reasonable, rational, empirical process of knowledge acquisition—i.e. within the road rules of reason, nothing is assumed, and nothing is ruled out.

Nathaniel and Ken go on to discuss several other topics at length: developmental stages and their relationship to spiritual states (both of which can be trans-rational, but in different ways), the confused notion that mystical states are "ineffable" and impossible to put into words (because if that were true, then sunsets, daydreams, and toothaches would be equally impossible to put into words), and the meaning of the term "nondual" (and why it is not equivalent to monism and the ethical vacuum such a concept creates).

Unlike some cold, calculating scientist who merely measures and dissects, Nathaniel embodies a deeply integral rationality, one that blooms with the incredible warmth, texture, and color of human life. His is a rationality that touches, that includes, that brings together, and that, perhaps despite himself, shades into the brilliance of a vast openness, one that simultaneously honors the profound nobility of reason, and releases it from the burden of carrying the entire Kosmos upon its shoulders....

We hope you enjoy the dialogue....

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